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alcibiades i-第7章

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can persuade individuals; try conclusions upon me; and prove to me that the

just is not always expedient。



ALCIBIADES:  You take liberties; Socrates。



SOCRATES:  I shall take the liberty of proving to you the opposite of that

which you will not prove to me。



ALCIBIADES:  Proceed。



SOCRATES:  Answer my questionsthat is all。



ALCIBIADES:  Nay; I should like you to be the speaker。



SOCRATES:  What; do you not wish to be persuaded?



ALCIBIADES:  Certainly I do。



SOCRATES:  And can you be persuaded better than out of your own mouth?



ALCIBIADES:  I think not。



SOCRATES:  Then you shall answer; and if you do not hear the words; that

the just is the expedient; coming from your own lips; never believe another

man again。



ALCIBIADES:  I won't; but answer I will; for I do not see how I can come to

any harm。



SOCRATES:  A true prophecy!  Let me begin then by enquiring of you whether

you allow that the just is sometimes expedient and sometimes not?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And sometimes honourable and sometimes not?



ALCIBIADES:  What do you mean?



SOCRATES:  I am asking if you ever knew any one who did what was

dishonourable and yet just?



ALCIBIADES:  Never。



SOCRATES:  All just things are honourable?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And are honourable things sometimes good and sometimes not good;

or are they always good?



ALCIBIADES:  I rather think; Socrates; that some honourable things are

evil。



SOCRATES:  And are some dishonourable things good?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  You mean in such a case as the following:In time of war; men

have been wounded or have died in rescuing a companion or kinsman; when

others who have neglected the duty of rescuing them have escaped in safety?



ALCIBIADES:  True。



SOCRATES:  And to rescue another under such circumstances is honourable; in

respect of the attempt to save those whom we ought to save; and this is

courage?



ALCIBIADES:  True。



SOCRATES:  But evil in respect of death and wounds?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And the courage which is shown in the rescue is one thing; and

the death another?



ALCIBIADES:  Certainly。



SOCRATES:  Then the rescue of one's friends is honourable in one point of

view; but evil in another?



ALCIBIADES:  True。



SOCRATES:  And if honourable; then also good:  Will you consider now

whether I may not be right; for you were acknowledging that the courage

which is shown in the rescue is honourable?  Now is this courage good or

evil?  Look at the matter thus:  which would you rather choose; good or

evil?



ALCIBIADES:  Good。



SOCRATES:  And the greatest goods you would be most ready to choose; and

would least like to be deprived of them?



ALCIBIADES:  Certainly。



SOCRATES:  What would you say of courage?  At what price would you be

willing to be deprived of courage?



ALCIBIADES:  I would rather die than be a coward。



SOCRATES:  Then you think that cowardice is the worst of evils?



ALCIBIADES:  I do。



SOCRATES:  As bad as death; I suppose?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And life and courage are the extreme opposites of death and

cowardice?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And they are what you would most desire to have; and their

opposites you would least desire?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  Is this because you think life and courage the best; and death

and cowardice the worst?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And you would term the rescue of a friend in battle honourable;

in as much as courage does a good work?



ALCIBIADES:  I should。



SOCRATES:  But evil because of the death which ensues?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  Might we not describe their different effects as follows:You

may call either of them evil in respect of the evil which is the result;

and good in respect of the good which is the result of either of them?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And they are honourable in so far as they are good; and

dishonourable in so far as they are evil?



ALCIBIADES:  True。



SOCRATES:  Then when you say that the rescue of a friend in battle is

honourable and yet evil; that is equivalent to saying that the rescue is

good and yet evil?



ALCIBIADES:  I believe that you are right; Socrates。



SOCRATES:  Nothing honourable; regarded as honourable; is evil; nor

anything base; regarded as base; good。



ALCIBIADES:  Clearly not。



SOCRATES:  Look at the matter yet once more in a further light:  he who

acts honourably acts well?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And he who acts well is happy?



ALCIBIADES:  Of course。



SOCRATES:  And the happy are those who obtain good?



ALCIBIADES:  True。



SOCRATES:  And they obtain good by acting well and honourably?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  Then acting well is a good?



ALCIBIADES:  Certainly。



SOCRATES:  And happiness is a good?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  Then the good and the honourable are again identified。



ALCIBIADES:  Manifestly。



SOCRATES:  Then; if the argument holds; what we find to be honourable we

shall also find to be good?



ALCIBIADES:  Certainly。



SOCRATES:  And is the good expedient or not?



ALCIBIADES:  Expedient。



SOCRATES:  Do you remember our admissions about the just?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes; if I am not mistaken; we said that those who acted justly

must also act honourably。



SOCRATES:  And the honourable is the good?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And the good is expedient?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  Then; Alcibiades; the just is expedient?



ALCIBIADES:  I should infer so。



SOCRATES:  And all this I prove out of your own mouth; for I ask and you

answer?



ALCIBIADES:  I must acknowledge it to be true。



SOCRATES:  And having acknowledged that the just is the same as the

expedient; are you not (let me ask) prepared to ridicule any one who;

pretending to understand the principles of justice and injustice; gets up

to advise the noble Athenians or the ignoble Peparethians; that the just

may be the evil?



ALCIBIADES:  I solemnly declare; Socrates; that I do not know what I am

saying。  Verily; I am in a strange state; for when you put questions to me

I am of different minds in successive instants。



SOCRATES:  And are you not aware of the nature of this perplexity; my

friend?



ALCIBIADES:  Indeed I am not。



SOCRATES:  Do you suppose that if some one were to ask you whether you have

two eyes or three; or two hands or four; or anything of that sort; you

would then be of different minds in successive instants?



ALCIBIADES:  I begin to distrust myself; but still I do not suppose that I

should。



SOCRATES:  You would feel no doubt; and for this reasonbecause you would

know?



ALCIBIADES:  I suppose so。



SOCRATES:  And the reason why you involuntarily contradict yourself is

clearly that you are ignorant?



ALCIBIADES:  Very likely。



SOCRATES:  And if you are perplexed in answering about just and unjust;

honourable and dishonourable; good and evil; expedient and inexpedient; the

reason is that you are ignorant of them; and therefore in perplexity。  Is

not that clear?



ALCIBIADES:  I agree。



SOCRATES:  But is this always the case; and is a man necessarily perplexed

about that of which he has no knowledge?



ALCIBIADES:  Certainly he is。



SOCRATES:  And do you know how to ascend into heaven?



ALCIBIADES:  Certainly not。



SOCRATES:  And in this case; too; is your judgment perplexed?



ALCIBIADES:  No。



SOCRATES:  Do you see the reason why; or shall I tell you?



ALCIBIADES:  Tell me。



SOCRATES:  The reason is; that you not only do not know; my friend; but you

do not think that you know。



ALCIBIADES:  There again; what do you mean?



SOCRATES:  Ask yourself; are you in any perplexity about things of which

you are ignorant?  You know; for example; that you know nothing about the

preparation of food。



ALCIBIADES:  Very true。



SOCRATES:  And do you think and perplex yourself about the preparation of

food:  or do you leave that to some one who understands the art?



ALCIBIADES:  The latter。



SOCRATES:  Or if you were on a voyage; would you bewilder yourself by

considering whether the rudder is to be drawn inwards or outwards; or do

you leave that to the pilot; and do nothing?



ALCIBIADES:  It would be the concern of the pilot。



SOCRATES:  Then you are not perplexed about what you do not know; if you

know that you do not know it?



ALCIBIADES:  I imagine not。



SOCRATES:  Do you not see; then; that mistakes in life and practice are

likewise to be attributed to the ignorance which has conceit of knowledge?



ALCIBIADES:  Once more; what do you mean?



SOCRATES:  I suppose that we b
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