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alcibiades i-第6章

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nature of wood and stone? are they not agreed if you ask them what they

are? and do they not run to fetch the same thing; when they want a piece of

wood or a stone?  And so in similar cases; which I suspect to be pretty

nearly all that you mean by speaking Greek。



ALCIBIADES:  True。



SOCRATES:  These; as we were saying; are matters about which they are

agreed with one another and with themselves; both individuals and states

use the same words about them; they do not use some one word and some

another。



ALCIBIADES:  They do not。



SOCRATES:  Then they may be expected to be good teachers of these things?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And if we want to instruct any one in them; we shall be right in

sending him to be taught by our friends the many?



ALCIBIADES:  Very true。



SOCRATES:  But if we wanted further to know not only which are men and

which are horses; but which men or horses have powers of running; would the

many still be able to inform us?



ALCIBIADES:  Certainly not。



SOCRATES:  And you have a sufficient proof that they do not know these

things and are not the best teachers of them; inasmuch as they are never

agreed about them?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。  



SOCRATES:  And suppose that we wanted to know not only what men are like;

but what healthy or diseased men are likewould the many be able to teach

us?



ALCIBIADES:  They would not。



SOCRATES:  And you would have a proof that they were bad teachers of these

matters; if you saw them at variance?



ALCIBIADES:  I should。



SOCRATES:  Well; but are the many agreed with themselves; or with one

another; about the justice or injustice of men and things?



ALCIBIADES:  Assuredly not; Socrates。



SOCRATES:  There is no subject about which they are more at variance?



ALCIBIADES:  None。



SOCRATES:  I do not suppose that you ever saw or heard of men quarrelling

over the principles of health and disease to such an extent as to go to war

and kill one another for the sake of them?



ALCIBIADES:  No indeed。



SOCRATES:  But of the quarrels about justice and injustice; even if you

have never seen them; you have certainly heard from many people; including

Homer; for you have heard of the Iliad and Odyssey?



ALCIBIADES:  To be sure; Socrates。



SOCRATES:  A difference of just and unjust is the argument of those poems?



ALCIBIADES:  True。



SOCRATES:  Which difference caused all the wars and deaths of Trojans and

Achaeans; and the deaths of the suitors of Penelope in their quarrel with

Odysseus。



ALCIBIADES:  Very true。



SOCRATES:  And when the Athenians and Lacedaemonians and Boeotians fell at

Tanagra; and afterwards in the battle of Coronea; at which your father

Cleinias met his end; the question was one of justicethis was the sole

cause of the battles; and of their deaths。



ALCIBIADES:  Very true。



SOCRATES:  But can they be said to understand that about which they are

quarrelling to the death?



ALCIBIADES:  Clearly not。



SOCRATES:  And yet those whom you thus allow to be ignorant are the

teachers to whom you are appealing。



ALCIBIADES:  Very true。



SOCRATES:  But how are you ever likely to know the nature of justice and

injustice; about which you are so perplexed; if you have neither learned

them of others nor discovered them yourself?



ALCIBIADES:  From what you say; I suppose not。



SOCRATES:  See; again; how inaccurately you speak; Alcibiades!



ALCIBIADES:  In what respect?



SOCRATES:  In saying that I say so。



ALCIBIADES:  Why; did you not say that I know nothing of the just and

unjust?



SOCRATES:  No; I did not。



ALCIBIADES:  Did I; then?



SOCRATES:  Yes。



ALCIBIADES:  How was that?



SOCRATES:  Let me explain。  Suppose I were to ask you which is the greater

number; two or one; you would reply 'two'?



ALCIBIADES:  I should。



SOCRATES:  And by how much greater?



ALCIBIADES:  By one。



SOCRATES:  Which of us now says that two is more than one?



ALCIBIADES:  I do。



SOCRATES:  Did not I ask; and you answer the question?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  Then who is speaking?  I who put the question; or you who answer

me?



ALCIBIADES:  I am。



SOCRATES:  Or suppose that I ask and you tell me the letters which make up

the name Socrates; which of us is the speaker?



ALCIBIADES:  I am。



SOCRATES:  Now let us put the case generally:  whenever there is a question

and answer; who is the speaker;the questioner or the answerer?



ALCIBIADES:  I should say; Socrates; that the answerer was the speaker。



SOCRATES:  And have I not been the questioner all through?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And you the answerer?



ALCIBIADES:  Just so。



SOCRATES:  Which of us; then; was the speaker?



ALCIBIADES:  The inference is; Socrates; that I was the speaker。



SOCRATES:  Did not some one say that Alcibiades; the fair son of Cleinias;

not understanding about just and unjust; but thinking that he did

understand; was going to the assembly to advise the Athenians about what he

did not know?  Was not that said?



ALCIBIADES:  Very true。



SOCRATES:  Then; Alcibiades; the result may be expressed in the language of

Euripides。  I think that you have heard all this 'from yourself; and not

from me'; nor did I say this; which you erroneously attribute to me; but

you yourself; and what you said was very true。  For indeed; my dear fellow;

the design which you meditate of teaching what you do not know; and have

not taken any pains to learn; is downright insanity。



ALCIBIADES:  But; Socrates; I think that the Athenians and the rest of the

Hellenes do not often advise as to the more just or unjust; for they see no

difficulty in them; and therefore they leave them; and consider which

course of action will be most expedient; for there is a difference between

justice and expediency。  Many persons have done great wrong and profited by

their injustice; others have done rightly and come to no good。



SOCRATES:  Well; but granting that the just and the expedient are ever so

much opposed; you surely do not imagine that you know what is expedient for

mankind; or why a thing is expedient?



ALCIBIADES:  Why not; Socrates?But I am not going to be asked again from

whom I learned; or when I made the discovery。



SOCRATES:  What a way you have!  When you make a mistake which might be

refuted by a previous argument; you insist on having a new and different

refutation; the old argument is a worn…our garment which you will no longer

put on; but some one must produce another which is clean and new。  Now I

shall disregard this move of yours; and shall ask over again;Where did

you learn and how do you know the nature of the expedient; and who is your

teacher?  All this I comprehend in a single question; and now you will

manifestly be in the old difficulty; and will not be able to show that you

know the expedient; either because you learned or because you discovered it

yourself。  But; as I perceive that you are dainty; and dislike the taste of

a stale argument; I will enquire no further into your knowledge of what is

expedient or what is not expedient for the Athenian people; and simply

request you to say why you do not explain whether justice and expediency

are the same or different?  And if you like you may examine me as I have

examined you; or; if you would rather; you may carry on the discussion by

yourself。



ALCIBIADES:  But I am not certain; Socrates; whether I shall be able to

discuss the matter with you。



SOCRATES:  Then imagine; my dear fellow; that I am the demus and the

ecclesia; for in the ecclesia; too; you will have to persuade men

individually。



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And is not the same person able to persuade one individual

singly and many individuals of the things which he knows?  The grammarian;

for example; can persuade one and he can persuade many about letters。



ALCIBIADES:  True。



SOCRATES:  And about number; will not the same person persuade one and

persuade many?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And this will be he who knows number; or the arithmetician?



ALCIBIADES:  Quite true。



SOCRATES:  And cannot you persuade one man about that of which you can

persuade many?



ALCIBIADES:  I suppose so。



SOCRATES:  And that of which you can persuade either is clearly what you

know?



ALCIBIADES:  Yes。



SOCRATES:  And the only difference between one who argues as we are doing;

and the orator who is addressing an assembly; is that the one seeks to

persuade a number; and the other an individual; of the same things。



ALCIBIADES:  I suppose so。



SOCRATES:  Well; then; since the same person who can persuade a multitude

can persuade individuals; try conclusions upon me; and prove to me that the

just is not always expedient。



ALCIBI
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